Useful Tips for Budding Entrepreneurs from Mikael Dia

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Mark Samms: –At the moment, so if you don’t mind, because I know you’re in a bit of a rush.

Mikael: No, I can live around with 4:15. It’s not a big deal. I actually live– Are you in London?

Mark Samms: I am in London.

Mikael: Nice. I’m actually in Canada, but I was in London for the last year.

Mark Samms: Okay, that’s why you’re…. Your Skype is confusing.

Mikael: Yeah, exactly. And I actually live in London now. I just came back to Canada to sort out my visa. And I’m coming back to London for two years. I’m coming back for London on Wednesday, actually. Tomorrow is when I fly back, so I have to kind of get my stuff.

Mark Samms: So you’re flying back tomorrow. You’re going to Mark Anastasi’s event on the weekend?

Mikael: Sorry?

Mark Samms: You’re going to Mark Anastasi’s event on the weekend?

Mikael: I don’t even know what that is.

Mark Samms: It’s the Laptop Millionaire Event; Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, I believe it is.

Mikael: Oh, really? No, I didn’t even know about it.

Mark Samms: Well, what I’ll do is I send you the other [voice cut]. I’m a type person that [meets] on the day, I will look to find out where it is and so on and so forth.

Mikael: Did you already pay for this, or are you signed up for it?

Mark Samms: It’s a very event. They’re going to be pitching stuff on the stage. But the idea for me, and I’m going to show it to you. Depends on what you’re thinking about, but for me, what I like to do is go there, not necessarily you’re going to sit in the room and be pitched too, but more to go and hang out the other guys. You’ll find some big marketers that are hanging out in the bar and things like that there. You can chill out with them. And I know quite a few of them. And also, networking with the speakers and things like that. That’s what I do. That’s my angle. Because I couldn’t afford other more productive, strategic angle than—

What I’m saying is, they’ll be pitching to a newbie marketplace, basically. So they’ll be pitching, like, a service how to get your first people on your list and build a product and so on and so forth, and don’t get me wrong. Obviously, it’s great information for somebody that needs that. But I get more from building a relationship with somebody and setting up an interview with them and then building if you ever get down the line, if you know what I mean.

Mikael: Sweet.

Yeah, 100%. You see all my Internet marketing to now has always been mostly affiliate marketing and it’s just me trying to understand the business a little bit more, and you know, just dabbling and making a bit of money online. But most of my experience in all of my businesses are offline.

Mark Samms: Okay, so that leads perfectly into the first question. Let me get the recording started.

Mikael: Yeah, sure.

Mark Samms: Okay, so basically, what I want to know is what were you doing before you started dabbling online and what is your reason to build a business online?

Mikael: Yeah, so before and currently:
I’m an entrepreneur. I just build business. Most of them have been offline, but of course, there’s always an online component to everything.

Mark Samms: What types of businesses?

Mikael: I started a clothing company called King Oak and this clothing company, I started it in Toronto, Canada with two of my buddies. We started this in about 2010. Actually, we’re just about to re-launch the branch and reposition our brand as something slightly different. I’m not going to go into too much detail about King Oak.

So that’s where I kind of started dabbling into building a business and building offline, you know, trying to figure out how does this whole business game work.
Right now, in London…

Mark Samms: Before you move away from that business, I want to sort of touch on that because I think it’s very important for people to understand the similarities between offline and online businesses and how they transition on to online, and things like that.

First of all, what made you think to do a clothing line because it is such a competitive industry? What made you feel that you had what it took to tap into a clothing line, firstly? I’ll let you know answer that first.

Mikael: Okay, so to give you a little bit of background on the company itself, how we went about this, it was myself and two of my closest mates in Toronto. So we all love fashion, we’ve always loved fashion, and to be completely honest, how it really started was, we were all sitting down one day and we’re like, “We need new shirts and we need new clothes.” For some reason, we just had this random conversation, and we’re like, “You know what, let’s just create our own clothing. Let’s just start it up and start with T-shirts and create our own designs for our T-shirts, and let’s try to sell them if people want to buy them.”

Mark Samms: That is so cool. So initially, it was just an inspiration and you took action on it.

Mikael: Yeah, exactly. Initially, it was just because we wanted to do something literally for ourselves and see, at the same time, if we could turn it into a business. To be completely honest, we were way over ambitious and we didn’t really think business enough. We thought a lot about our designs and we thought a lot about what looks cool and what we wanted to wear, but in terms of business strategy, we weren’t very smart about it in a sense. That’s why we’re going through a re-launch right now with King Oak. But that’s how it originally started and now the direction of it is, you know what, we want to stick with the fact that it started off as us, so we’re repositioning it.

Like I said, I don’t want to reveal too much because the launch is going to happen pretty soon, so that is a little secret, but, yeah, that’s how King Oak started. It was kind of a fun little adventure.

Mark Samms: Cool, like, off-line, I’d love for you to let me know where I can watch and see the launch unravel sort of thing. That would be really cool and interesting to watch, definitely. I’m always interested in stuff like that.

So after that, what happened, because I remember you said you had a few offline businesses what other things have you been tapping into?

Mikael: Okay, so, one thing you have to know about me is that I’m not– Because there’s two ways you can go about business; entrepreneurship as a whole.

The first way is you follow your passion and you go with something that you’re very passionate about and you try to make it work. It was kind of that type of business. We were very passionate about clothing so we tried to create our own clothes and tried to turn it into a business in the process. That’s what artists do, that’s what people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, they are very passionate about their specific thing.

The alternate is, you can just be somebody who loves building things. For example, Richard Branson. Richard Branson just dabbled into everything. He loves learning about different things. He just loves building business.

Mark Samms: And getting a specialist team around it and then run with it.

Mikael: Exactly. I’m more of that route so this next business might sound a little bit strange.

Mark Samms: So you’re setting up to understand why I might find it strange. That’s good, okay.

Mikael: I’m opening up a Mandarin school in the U.K. in London. Long story short, I have the opportunity to expand the biggest Mandarin school in China so I’m part of the expansion team and we’re starting with London. The school is called Mandarin House so listening to this video, I was looking to learn Mandarin. The website is http://london.mandarinhouse.com/. That’s what I’m focusing on right now is expanding that and building that business, so it’s interesting.

Mark Samms: Obviously, that’s a language training center, right?

Mikael: Yes.

Mark Samms: So when it comes to that sort of industry, personally, I’m not somebody that has learned lots of different languages so obviously I wouldn’t be the right marketplace, but from your researches, is there like a really big demand for people wanting to learn to learn Mandarin in the U.K.? In London?

Mikael: In general, Mandarin is now the biggest sought-after language.

Mark Samms: Why is that?

Mikael: Because people are starting to realize that China is the next place.

Mark Samms: Ah, yes.

Mikael: Companies are moving all of their business. They’re not moving their headquarters to China but they’re expanding all their business and all their relationships to China. And they’re realizing that their employees need to be able to speak the language because China does not work like Germany, let’s say. Germany, everybody speaks German but everybody also speaks English. The majority of people only speak Mandarin.

Mark Samms: Oh, I see. Okay.

Mikael: So the way the world is going and the way I see it is Mandarin is not the next French or Spanish, necessarily. It’s the next English. It’s the next evolution of languages in terms of what is going to be dominating around the world where it’s almost a necessity to have if you want to do business.

Mark Samms: I can validate what you’re saying there because when you said that, it reminds me that, just speaking to one of my cousins who actually left to go and study out in China and he was talking to me and the enthusiasm that he was talking to me with saying, “Cous, you got to understand, like, what’s happening in China at the moment, the economy.” And so on and so forth. He was really going into it and saying, “You need to come out there with me and we’re going to start investing to some of the small, start-uptight companies.” And his passion just made me feel like there’s something going on out there.

I want these people like, obviously, if a cousin’s going out there for a year to study and he’s studying economics, then I know that there’s definitely something going on and [how] different that to be, because that puts some investments out there. So yeah, I can definitely see why a language company in this country would really thrive if you position it correctly and you are strategic about the way that you go about your market to position yourself as the forefrontrunner for the service.

Mikael: Exactly.

Mark Samms: Definitely. That’s really cool.

So it’s the clothes company and the Mandarin company, the two main offline businesses that you–

Mikael: Yes, I also do some consulting. I’m part of another startup company that does a lot of digital services, a lot of outsourcing, digital services in Bulgaria. So I’m consulting for that company and working alongside them building their business in the U.K. as well.

Mark Samms: Cool. That’s sounds really good.

So how is it managing all of these different things, plus I can see that you obviously got a sort of Internet marketing type business as well which we’re going to go into in a second, but how is it managing all of these different things? Because I managed quite a few different projects and people say that you shouldn’t do more than one project for a time and stuff like that.

And don’t get me wrong. I agree that you can’t necessarily work on those different projects at the same time, but if you’re smart and you know how to systemize things, you can get your team into place, like, “Okay, you guys are doing this, this, this and this. Focus on that area.” And another beat is, “You guys, this is what you’re doing.” And so on and so forth. So you can build the team to do a number of different businesses and then you command all those business yourself. So how was it, is that the same?

Mikael: The way I look at things is I fully agree it’s very hard to devote a hundred percent of your time to three, you know… Obviously, you have to figure out a way to divide that 100% into how many projects you’re willing to manage. But of course, the less amount of time you allocate to one, the more neglected it is and the less successful it becomes in a sense.

So you 100% need to have very good management skills and very good outsourcing skills. I outsource a lot of my crop work, a lot of the work that just takes up time for no reason. You know, stuff that doesn’t necessarily require my presence, I outsource all that stuff. And I don’t mind spending money to free up my time because, in my opinion, my time is a lot more valuable than the amount of money I’m paying in order to get that stuff outsourced.

Mark Samms: I think it’s one of the most important assets you have.

Mikael: Yeah, a hundred percent.

So I always try to manage no more than three projects. That way, I can stay focused and I can eliminate all of the noise from outside projects or whatever.

So how it’s going right now is with King Oak, my clothing company, well, I have two business partners who are focusing a lot more time on it than I am. And that’s not because I don’t want to focus my time on it; it’s because we have a system in place where we each manage different things. So they have a bit more focus on that.

My main focus is on Mandarin House, my online business, and then consulting for the services company because, obviously, they hire me to consult for them, so if they pay me, I will be there.

Mark Samms: Okay, no doubt. Definitely.

Mikael: But, yeah, managing time, it’s all about being organized, really. Being organized and being smart, like you said. It’s not difficult. You don’t have to just focus on one thing. If you focus on more than three, personally, for me, it gets to be a little bit too much. I just don’t have the right teams in place yet in order to push one aside and let it run on autopilot in a sense.

But, yeah, if you’re smart and if you’re organized, and that’s the same with online marketing; if you’re smart and you’re organized and you have your whole overview map, in a sense, of what you need to do and you can allocate your time to these different things, of these different components of this overview map, then everything kind of works. Everything can place itself out. And of course, a lot of people just aren’t willing to do the work. A lot of people are very lazy and then rather watch a TV show instead of do work, so I’m not one of those people. I tend to work quite a lot. So that also helps, I guess.

Mark Samms:
I have my moments. Sometimes I’m a bit lazy.

Mikael:
Don’t worry. I do too.

Mark Samms:
But I make sure that what needs to get done gets done. And I got times, you’ll see me doing, like, 24-hour days and sleeping for six and doing 24 hours again and then having a break for a few days. So I’m 10th runs and then sort break back for a little bit.

Mikael:
It’s all about how you manage your time, and because it has to be a balance of work hard and play hard, you know. You have to work your ass off but you also have to enjoy life.

Mark Samms:
Of course, very much so. But if you’re doing it, it can just completely kill your vibe and you just don’t feel like doing anything and you start self-sabotaging your results which, in the past, I was able to sort out. But, yeah, definitely.

So, obviously, as you’ve been developing your business, I would assume that you could see the value in any business. Building a list and building a relationship with people on that list based on whatever that market is.

And as you’ve gone about building your list, not just in the IM niche and the businesses that you’re going into, like with the Mandarin niche and so on and so forth. What are some of the things that you’re thinking about in regards to getting the first people onto your list, getting those first few hundred, first few thousand people onto your list? What have you done already and what sort of things are you thinking about doing?

Mikael:
It’s kind of funny that you ask because the thing is, maybe, when I first started Internet marketing, I was in school and I just knew I wanted to make own money. I knew I didn’t want to work for a big corporation. I had no desire to work for a big company. So I just needed to figure out a way to make money. And I came across Internet marketing just from making money online type of Google search and whatnot. And I had no idea about list building. This was maybe two-and-a-half years ago. All I thought was Internet marketing was all about SEO and article marketing and just optimizing a web page.

So I spent countless hours building niche websites on super irrelevant products that people would never, ever buy. Like, for example, I built one on survival knives. And I was like, “Hey, this is an untyped niche. Somebody’s going this.” Sure enough, nobody cares about survival knives except for the very few extreme and they don’t go through my crappy site that I built anyways.

So up until then, I had no idea. It’s only about, like, six months ago, to be honest, in the Internet marketing space and the affiliate marketing space, that I started learning about list building. And I learned this through a guy named Russell Brunson.

Mark Samms:
Oh, excellent.

Mikael:
He’s a legend in the Internet marketing space.

Mark Samms:
He is a legend and he’s gotten some really good content.

Mikael:
Oh, yeah. He’s got amazing content. And one of the coaching programs that I signed up with from him was DotComSecrets X. If anyone is looking to learn how to make money online, it is a fantastic product. It’s a fantastic way to–

Mark Samms:
I second that.

Mikael:
You’ve used it?

Mark Samms:
Yeah, I second that. My friend, he actually got that course and he allowed me to look at some of the stuff in there and some of the stuff that he was doing there. And he actually created a betting site. After creating this betting site, he had done all the SEO type stuff they taught in it because there were some dark side secrets as well and he had done some of the stuff as well. And basically, the site is getting natural SEO traffic every single day. He’s got a really cool funnel that’s converting up sales and down sales and monthly [recurring] and things like that out of a really small amount of traffic. So I’m definitely seeing the results from what he’s doing with that. So I definitely second what you’re saying in regards to how good that course is, and if you take action on the information, the result you can get from it, because, obviously, there’s no point just knowing information without taking action on it.

Mikael:
Exactly. The key is definitely, you have to take action because anybody can sit there and listen to theory after theory and sit there and say, “Hey, yeah, I know how to do this.” Until you actually do it, well, you can’t really say anything.

Mark Samms:
Exactly, yeah.

Mikael:
So this course, DotComSecrets X and Russell Brunson, like, they really explained to me the concept of creating a squeeze page and developing your one-time offer or whatever you want to call it, your self-liquidating offer, and bidding your follow-up sequence, bidding your funnel in a sense. And after really understanding that concept and that theory, it was really easy to implement and to take action and actually start doing it.

To get to my first 1000, the main traffic I used – because, obviously, once you create your funnel, you still need to send traffic to it – the main traffic I used was solo ads and ad swaps, mostly because I realized that SEO and organic methods are amazing, but they do take up a lot of time to implement.

Mark Samms:
They take up so much time.

Mikael:
Yeah, and they’re not instant. But solo ads provide instant results and you can get paid instantly if you have a good sales funnel on place. All you do is send traffic to it and you should start seeing some sales if you do it properly.

Mark Samms:
Yeah, and even if you don’t, straight away, it’s something that you don’t give up on. You just need to make a few tweaks. And it’s like you’re getting instant feedback from it so you can actually work out how to actually get it to convert if it’s not converting straight away. So it is pretty cool. It is definitely pretty cool.

Mikael:
A lot of people are afraid to use solo ads because they don’t really want to spend money, but you have to. You got to.

Mark Samms:
There’s no point pretending. At the end of the day, you look at any businesses doing well. Do you think they don’t spend money?

Mikael:
No, they have to, of course.

Mark Samms:
It’s difficult to think or to be sucked into these things where people make you feel like you don’t need to spend any money to make money. It’s ridiculous. If I put that on the table from now, that’s ridiculous.

Mikael:
That’s why in accounting, there’s always an expenses row in your table. You need to have some sort of expenses in order to make some revenue.

Mark Samms:
Yeah, definitely. I see what you mean there.
So, obviously, getting those first few people in your list, by learning that from Russell Brunson, do you feel now moving forward in some of your other ventures as well, like, what you maybe would have just done, maybe SEO? You’re now looking at, “What type companies can I approach to potentially do some JVs with, to get people on the list for our Mandarin courses?” Stuff like that. Are you thinking about things like that or…?

Mikael:
Yeah, for sure. Now that I understand the Internet marketing space on a broader scale, now things are starting to click in my head where, “Oh, there’s opportunity” or “There’s bad opportunity.” It’s not just about optimizing my page and just try to get it ranked or Google AdWords or Facebook Ads. There’s so many ways to drive traffic to a site, and, yeah, JV partnerships are a huge way to do that as well.

So, yeah, we’ll see. The only difference is, for my Mandarin school, it’s a non-offline school which can tend to be tricky because it’s centered in one location, and unless your JV partners are all based out of London, well then, the traffic that they’re going to send to it might be useless. But that being said, we are developing an online learning platform for Mandarin House so when that starts coming along, then affiliates and all that will be part of the whole process.

Mark Samms:
Yeah, very true. I see what you mean. Okay, yeah, definitely. Let’s have a look here.
So you got us to like things like building a relationship and so on and so forth with your list. Obviously, you do ad swaps and stuff like it. Doing what you got to do with your list to help keep them responsive and build trust and build a solid relationship with them so that they take action on the recommendations that you put forward and things like that. I know you’re just starting out, you’ve only done it for six months, but what’s your full process behind that, definitely what you’re implementing at the moment, what’s the [beat] there?

Mikael:
Okay, the things is, for me right now, that’s still the trickiest part of the whole Internet marketing. Getting traffic, converting that traffic through a sales funnel is quite simple. And same with setting up an autoresponder. I will touch on my autoresponder sequence because I have a very systematic way of doing my autoresponder sequence that seems to work very well.

But in terms of keeping a good relationship, once they’ve gone through this autoresponder, any sort of broadcast that I send out to them, that’s where it gets a little bit trickier, for me, personally. It’s because it really has to be the right balance of quality content and personal interaction.

For example, you don’t really want to overdo it with ad swaps, but at the same time, you need those ad swaps in order to continually build your list. But if you overdo it, people start thinking that that’s all you’re going to send them and they don’t really understand why one e-mail will be you talking to them while another e-mail will be an ad. And you know you really have to try to figure out what is that right balance.

I try to segment my list as well as much possible to make sure that when I do my broadcasts, I don’t broadcast something about social media to my list building list. Or I don’t just one big broadcast promoting one product to everybody. I have to make sure that the people who care about social media will get the products that relate to social media. And I think a lot of people miss that part. I’ve noticed that a lot of people tend to just put out their broadcast to everybody in because–

Mark Samms:
Hands up. I’m not great at the segment in part. I’ve got a buyer’s list, I’ve got people that come from SaySwap, I’ve got people that come from other sources, but I’m not necessarily thinking on the category of their interest. And I know I should because I’ve got a friend that’s doing that and he got a smaller list than mine and he’s killing it, and I know I should, I just don’t. So I’ve got to start taking some time to do it, definitely.

Mikael:
Yeah, because once you do it, then you know that if somebody used or if somebody came in to your list through a free offer, free video, whatever; whatever that free offer was, well, clearly, they’re interested in that specific niche. So if you go and give them a free offer, on for example, I have a list all on social media and the free offer that I give them is about LinkedIn and how LinkedIn can help grow your business and all that, if I push people through LinkedIn, but then all of a sudden, I’m telling them about list building and I’m promoting them products on, even though there’s a relation, the people in that list won’t see that relationship between list building and LinkedIn. All they will think is, “How do I grow my business through social media with LinkedIn?” And then I’m sending them an offer about list building. And they are, “Whoa, why do I care? I’m not in Internet marketing. I’m just trying to grow my local business through LinkedIn in a sense.”

So that’s the reason why I try to segment, but again, it’s not that simple. It’s not like you can just figure out every single segment within your list and at the same time and whatnot. It’s not so black and white.

Mark Samms:
It definitely is not so black and white. Because I’m talking with people and they say that it doesn’t matter at all.

Mikael:
Yeah, exactly.

Mark Samms:
There’s different schools of [forms] on it. And I guess, at the end of the day, I can give you the truth from it if you still remain based on your list that you’re testing.

Mikael:
Exactly.

Mark Samms:
Yeah.

Mikael:
It’s your marketing style too. The content of the message also matters and whatnot, so segmenting is something I try to do, but, at the same time, it’s not necessary. I know people, who, like you, who don’t do it and they still do extremely well.

Mark Samms:
Obviously, the main segmentation for me is bias, non-bias, and that segmentation alone is enough to make a really big difference. I can see the differences in that segment alone. And then just really, the sources that these things come from, but then, to be honest, I look at the different sources, but then I would potentially check all three of those campaigns and I mail the same thing to all of them if they’re not a buyer, and if they are a buyer, they get something slightly different.

But then what I also do is I spend a lot of time; I don’t if you’ve heard something of Autoresponder madness from Andre Chaperon. It’s really good because what he does is he teaches to you about how to create an e-mail follow-up sequence which sort of is very similar to like how a TV program like 24 or Desperate Housewives is, where at the end of each one, you’re left with this cliffhanger and you can’t wait to find out what happens next, plus within each episode, loops are opened up on certain topics which builds anxiety. You want to know happens. And then that doesn’t get closed until the next season and so on and so forth. He shows you how to do that within your e-mail messaging, weaving your story and so on and so forth into it.

And I have to admit, since beforehand, what I used to do was just copy and paste affiliate swipes into my autoresponder and I have them on a follow-up sequence. But don’t get me wrong. It made sales for me and so and so forth. But I definitely noticed that after you get to about the 15th e-mail and so on and so forth, there was a big decline in the open rates and clickthrough rates. And since I’ve incorporated what you call as an SOS, like, a soap opera sequence method into my autoresponder, eventually, I see my open rates creep up.

Mikael:
Really?

Mark Samms:
Yeah, and it’s amazing. My open rate and clickthrough rates creeped upwards. And I’ve actually got my GetResponse open now and I’ve got a campaign which all of the [leave] that come from SaySwaps go into this campaign and they basically go into this follow-up sequence. And it started off and the open rate was at, like, 18%, when I first started off. And that was like when a couple of hundred people have gone through it. Now, like over a thousand people have gone through it and the open rate’s at 30% and the clickthrough rate’s at 17.29%. And I must say, if you have the chance, have a look through this Autoresponder Madness. It’s amazing.

Mikael:
It’s called Autoresponder Madness?

Mark Samms:
Autoresponder Madness by a guy named Andre Chaperon. And it’s really about the key things that hook people in regards to stories and so on and so forth and how you weave that into your own life and stuff like that. And it’s amazing because it works because when you think about sort of programs that you get hooked on and stuff like that, you know why you get hooked because you want to know what happens to Jack Bauer and so on and so forth.

Mikael:
Yeah, a hundred percent. I know that feeling. I’m stuck right now in a show that has that exact thing and it’s kind of frustrating because I can’t stop watching it.

Mark Samms:
Tell me what it is.

Mikael:
Sons of Anarchy.

Mark Samms:
Oh, wow. I haven’t watched that one yet.

Mikael:
I’m telling you if you have work to do, do not start that show. Not one of those shows that you want to start when you have stuff to do.

Mark Samms:
Okay, because I’ve got quite a few shows that I’m already hooked on. I watch Office, obviously 24 is finished now, but I watch all the different shows. That’s my vice. After I’ve done a nice day’s worth of work, I sit back and I’ll spend a few hours, or even fall asleep, watching different shows and things like that. That’s my little vice.

Mikael:
It’s perfect.

We all look into this Autoresponder Madness.

Mark Samms:
Yeah, I can only recommend that with as much—I just to know that from doing that, it’s really working.
Again, my friend who has the betting site, he incorporated, the methodology of the story into his funnel and it’s going to increase his conversions and so on and so forth.

Mikael:
Good. That’s really cool.

Mark Samms:
And my girlfriend, she started a dance class, she does dance classes, offline dance classes and stuff like that. And she promotes it on Facebook. She has a fan page. And I just gave her the book to read further and she’s now looking to incorporate the story free of how that close she was able to lose quite a bit of weight for getting into dance and the spirit of dance and how she loves it and the history behind it, stuff like that.

It’s really cool. And she’s getting excited about what she’s creating and stuff like that.

Mikael:
That’s so nice. Good to know.

Mark Samms:
Should help you out, definitely.

Mikael:
Cool. Thanks, man.

Mark Samms:
No worries.

In regards to when you write your e-mails, like, value e-mails, is there a certain way that you construct the content? Short or long copy, or would you say that there’s one that’s the best, or it’s a combination of both? From what you’ve seen so far.

Mikael:
Yeah, from what I’ve seen so far, when you compare, for example, long and short e-mails, the long e-mails usually tend to have a much a lower clickthrough rate, but the people who do click are a lot better primed for the actual offer that you’re promoting to them.

So it’s almost like you’ve presold them, and if they have clicked, then they’re ready to purchase, in a sense, or they’re ready to go to the next phase.

Mark Samms:
That’s so true. Yeah.

Mikael:
On the other hand, if all you’re looking for is clicks, shorter e-mail with one line or, you know, a couple lines at most is a much better way to get your clicks.

So if you’re sending out a solo ad or you’re doing ad swaps and you want to try to match clicks in a sense, then you go shorter because people will read the quick headline, skim through it and click much quicker.

Mark Samms:
Definitely.

I don’t know if you know somebody called Devon Brown?

Mikael:
No.

Mark Samms:
I don’t know if you have heard of him. And he said something, it was interesting, which gave me a different perspective on that as well because I know it the same thing as you. The long copy, which I do in my SOSs, they get less clicks but they get a lot higher conversation rates or click to sell, or to opt-in. And then the short one would give me a lot more clicks.

Now what he says is that, the way he went about was that he wanted to train his people to click, but then what he would always do is he’d bridge the click into his own content. So he would spend a lot of time where he makes a lot of daily videos and things like that. So it will be short copy, get them to click, get them onto his site, which he would then have a video presentation or some interesting content which will take them a bit more time to consume, so he gets them out of the e-mail onto his site, and he uses short copy to do that. And he trains his people to click, and then what he says is when he does offers, paid offers, and things like that, he gets the most amount of people being excited about the offer because of that.

I thought that was a really interesting point to look at because it made me think, maybe what I should do is make my e-mail short and then have my SOS maybe on a blog, so that people can actually view it on a blog, and plus, they can interact with the social buttons and things like that, which Google love nowadays.

Mikael:
Right.

So here’s something that I also try to implement when I do my sequence and when I do my autoresponder sequences. Right now, I’m still tweaking it and whatnot. You always try to figure it out. But, in a sense, the first e-mail that I send out is always some sort of intro to the type of content that the product or whatever it is that I’m promoting is offering, so if it’s on list building, I’ll just give a short, brief introduction about list building and why it’s good and give a few a-ha moments on what list building will do for you. And then near the end, I’ll have some sort of stops, though, pushing people to a specific product.

So my e-mail will be, like, “You have to start building your list for this, this, this, and this reason. Check out my next e-mail tomorrow. I’ll give you a couple more tips on how to build your list.” And then in the bottom, I would say, “P.S. , if you’re really interested in list building, check out this.” And then I’ll link to a specific product.

My second e-mail will push people a little bit more to that product. So usually, if I promote products, I always try to promote a product that has some sort of sales video, because sales videos are a lot better than sales pages. With just copy, they just captivate people a little better and you can refer to them a little bit more.

So in my second e-mail, what I’ll usually do is tell people, “Hey, go watch this video. Remember how I talked to you about list building yesterday? Well, go watch this video because it’s really, really cool. You’ll learn so much more about list building.”

In the second e-mail, I also tell them, “You know, I had this a-ha moment just from this video alone.” Like, “This is what I learned just from watching this 15-minute video.”

And then in the third e-mail, I’ll push them back again to that same video but to a very, very specific point in that video. So I’ll say, “Did you watch that video? Did you see that minute, 2:13, where this guy, KotzCo, this specific thing? Isn’t that really cool? Honestly, if you haven’t watched it yet, go and watch that video. You’ll learn a lot.”

Mark Samms:
I like that.

Mikael:
And then my fourth one will always be a push to my blog. So it makes it seem like I’m not giving them anything that has to do with that specific product. I’ll usually pull something on my blog very related to that. So it could be another video that I’ve done on YouTube about list building, or it could be my own blog post that I wrote about list building or whatever it is. I’ll push people to that blog post. But then, at the very bottom of that blog post, I’ll have another link pushing back to that same product, in a sense.

Mark Samms:
Does that work?

Mikael:
It works really well. To be completely honest, I’m not sure how well the open rates of my blog are really good, but in terms of how many sales I get from that specific blog post, I still haven’t figured it out. I still need to keep tweaking it and make it work a little bit better.

But the reason I do it is not necessarily to get that sale right away. It’s more so to show people, “Hey, I also have a blog that you can follow. I also have content that I’m providing you for free.” And, at the same time, you can optimize your blog post for SEO. So you can start getting some organic traffic to that specific blog post if it’s good enough.

So I try to put it in that sense and it seems to work really well. I mean, like I said before, the autoresponder and the e-mailing is still where I’m trying to tweak and trying to figure out really how do I captivate and get a lot of sales or a lot of value from each of my list, in a sense. But so far, it’s working pretty well so I can’t complain. It’s making me some side money.

Mark Samms:
Yeah, I know that. Definitely.

Well, that’s really some good information that you’ve made [there]. I’m really grateful that you’re still taking to sort of come out and just have a conversation with me. I know that you’re busy with moving back from Canada to London, which is crazy.

And just before we go, just one more thing. I just wanted to ask that obviously I know that Russell Brunson played a big part in your learning and thinks like that. But other than Russell Brunson, do you have other mentors that you have?

Mikael:
Yeah. Russell Brunson was a huge part in terms of understanding the bigger scope of Internet marketing. Russell Brunson the way of describing things and giving you information where he cuts through all the BS and gives and, “Here, this is how the system works. This is what you need to do, do it.” That’s what I like about Russell’s system.

But there are two guys that I learned all of my SEO and all of my organic article marketing stuff from, and they are actually fantastic. It’s just SEO and article marketing is really for me, but those two guys are Kyle and Carson. They are two Canadians. They live out west in Canada, but they’ve done really well. They always brand themselves together. They started in this Internet marketing world together, so if you want to search for them, it’s Kyle and Carson.

They’re always, in a sense, together. And they built, it’s called the Wealthy Affiliate University. It’s like a big, basically of database of resources and all that.

Mark Samms:
I’ve heard of that thing. It sounds familiar.

Mikael:
And there’s also Daegan Smith who is–

Mark Samms:
Everybody mentions Daegan Smith. I’ve noticed that, probably I have, like, 10 interviews; five or six people have mentioned Daegan Smith.

Mikael:
Daegan Smith is the king of [creating ads]. When it comes to copywriting ads, he’s just a genius. And when it comes to just getting boatloads of traffic, he’s just so smart about it. So look up Daegan Smith. One thing that I tend to do is subscribe to all these guys’ e-mail list, just to see what kind of e-mails they send and how they communicate with their list, because you only learn that stuff by learning from people who know how to do it.

Another person is Jonathan Budd – Jonathan Budd and Mark Hoverson. They just had one of the biggest launches in all Internet marketing this year. A product called “Futuristic Marketing”.
Futuristic Marketing, I signed up to it. It’s absolutely phenomenal in terms of the product, the marketing scheme that they put in place, the JV affiliate rewards, and whoever was the biggest promoter got to win an Audi R8.

Mark Samms:
Wow.

Mikael:
First prize. The product itself is just absolutely fantastic in terms of what they teach and how they go about it. So, yeah, those are probably the four people that I would say is… Russell Brunson, Kyle and Carson, Daegan Smith, and Jonathan Budd. Those are the four gurus, in a sense, that I follow, that I watch very closely.

Mark Samms:
You’re getting a lot of value from them.

Mikael:
Yeah, they’ve made millions. And the thing is, you never want to follow too many people. You need to figure out what your own style is and how you get there. One thing I used to do when I was just getting into this space was I would buy this product and this product and I would try this and that.

Mark Samms:
We’ve all done that. I think it’s like a rite of passage, in a sense, because everyone seems to have done that.

Mikael:
Yeah, but the problem with doing that, and anybody who’s listening to this recording and is just starting out, the problem with doing that is, yes, you learn a lot but you don’t do anything. When you watch stuff in terms of too many videos to watch, too many lessons to learn, you will never, ever put anything into action.

So my suggestion to anyone starting out, buy no more than two products. Buy one product if possible and focus on that product to the teeth and see where that takes you because your journey will always lead to different types, different things and especially if you’re getting into the Internet marketing space and Internet marketing niche, you’re going to come across thousands of products.

Mark Samms:
Of course. Very much so, yeah.

Mikael:
And it’s ridiculous. And if you get caught up by buying this person’s product or this person’s product, everyone’s going to try to teach you how to make money online. Every single person and their dog is going to try to teach you how to make money online.

So focus to one and take it as far as you’re willing to take it and then if you see another opportunity, you take that new opportunity and move forward. But don’t just buy and buy products just to buy products.

Mark Samms:
That’s so true. That’s definitely true.

And I’d like to add something to that. Before you go and buying products and stuff like that, trying to sort a workout plan about what it is that you want to do and be clear with that plan so that when you are thinking about buying a product you can then, at least, buy something that’s going to enhance what your plan and your goals and your journey is about. And I realize that because I used to dabble with different things all a time, very much, sort of like what you did as well. I was never getting anywhere and once I decided my skill set is communication and relationship building, I started buying courses on joint ventures and partnerships and licensing and setting up deals and things like that. I don’t want to say I’m an expert but then I was able to set up and create well from actually doing those types of things. So work hard who you are and what your skills lie and then buy products that are going to enhance what you already got. Hopefully that can help you guys.

Mikael:
I fully agree. I think that’s a very good point. So, yeah, if you really want it, if you really want to be successful online, you just have to be consistent and put into work.

Mark Samms:
Definitely. It’s all about the work. You have to put the work in.

Before you get to that four-hour work week or four-hour work day, you’re going to have to go through those 12- and 16-hour work days, so be aware of that.

Oh, well, thank you so much for coming on today. I feel really bad because I’m looking at your name and I’m going to pronounce it wrong. So could you just say your name again for us, please? So I don’t [unintelligible] yet. I pretty have it already now.

Mikael:
Last name Dia, first name Mikael.

Mark Samms:
Mikael. Excellent. And, Mikael, thank you so much for just spending your time with us today. Before you go, if my guys, they want to just follow what’s going on with you, is there, like, a blog that they can go to or if there’s anything that you’re doing at the moment that you want people to be aware of, feel free to let everybody know.

Mikael:
There’s two ways that you can get in touch with me. One is through, obviously, Facebook. I have a Facebook page called The Dia Project. So just my last name, Dia. And then I have another with the same name, http://thediaproject.com/. So, basically my Internet marketing/entrepreneurship page and blog where I talk about all of my adventures and in most fields.

Mark Samms:
Cool. What I’ll do is I’ll put links on the blog to those locations as well, so you can just click through to those places. That’s it from us, guys. Until our next interview. Over and out. Thank you, Mikael.

Mikael:
Cheers!

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